I think...instead of nerfing necros, this just opens the doors to bumping up the other classes, which would then allow for more difficult content to be created and released, instead of relying on the tried and true death traps or hidden walls for a false sense of difficulty increase.

I'm game for keeping necros the way they are so long as we can improve the other classes. Not just so they're "the same" as a necro, just the little QoL additions some classes need.

I think thats a poor way to look at the situation in my opinion. You should not bump up other characters based on how a new class is fitting in.

Its a new class that was brought into the game and has yet to see any real balancing occur after people played it.

People getting emotional and saying they wont play anymore should really just be ignored if your goal is a healthy game in the end. Sure you might have some people quit, oh well. People come and go. Just look at how many people are playing today that were not a few months ago.

I dont see anyone responding to Drink's points 1 by 1 and telling us why he is wrong. I suspect he is 100% correct.

lets look at what Drink was asking for...



The first 3 are simply changes to the necros class specific items and sound perfectly responable to me. The other 2 are likely harder to do since they affect the base character. I think they should try doing the first 3 suggestions and then check the balance after that.

Why is this even an issue? Sounds more like people that don’t play Necro complaining about Necro being better. I’d rather more people complain about bringing Sorc and Warrior up to be competitive than worry about Necro stats. I would be surpised if people that actually have a Necro character and put the time and effort into it are like sure go ahead and reduce my stats.

so its pretty easy to see why its an issue.

if you are going to sink months into a game and you are aware your character will be inferior in every way to someone elses character just because you picked the wrong class to play... If you are a competitive person you will either stop playing or be forced to make a necro as well so that you dont fall behind. There will be people who dont care... but you haven't really created a new class, because the new class eliminated the reason to play other classes.

Ive just come back to the game and some of the changes they have made are interesting and some are really bad IMO. and making OP super classes is something i consider to be bad for the game. Each class had a very defined identity before and i thought it was pretty well thought out?. now that i am back it seems classes have lost their identity abit. If your fighter classes are not the best fighters then something is wrong.

Every time people go to fight a lich, they bring an AH. AH can rule every place, kill very quick. So AH is OP and should be cancelled. AH's do AT quicker than necros. AHs pent quicker.... AH's can do prison easy at Knight, undrugged...
AT non-RB Knight goes to Barb and Lich and does all the work solo....must be OP. Harden, warcry... AT goes everywhere blind, and can do so much with a skua set.
Ninja can solo prison at rank general. Must be OP.
Sorc and warrior have best spells. Can't be right.
Seyan has best blacksmith, best combination of everything. Great stealth, best WV, imm, ms, must be OP.

There is always 1 class that will be better at some things. Once there was a super race, that was called seyan. No, not OP in every way. But still considered favorite by most.
You had to waste a perfectly good char for it, to get that OP seyan. Maybe a major!
Now you need to waste a general at least to go necro. That is for those who can balance a char very well. Most common players can't and will need to waste a higher ranked char.
When you waste the highest rank char, you should get the best race, according to those old rules.

I see one part that is unbalanced. Sorcs struggle the most. Maybe focus on that one?

And maybe ask for 2 versions of a necro, a normal one and a hardcore one. So if you want to proof yourself, pick the hardcore one with 1 hand behind your back.
And let others keep this necro.

I still don’t get what it matters. If you think Necro is too powerful then don’t play it. Instead it’s just alot of negatives on how we should rebalance the game. If you want to rebalance it that bad then we should all go back to 5 races and no RB. We should get rid of dragon gear. We should get rid of AT and just go back to 53 pent solves. This game is about being new and innovative and keeping a game alive, yet some people just want to look at individual numbers and tweak the heck out of them. As I said before, if you want to take a vote and change it as a collective community I am up for the discussion. But don’t allow a select few to determine how they think everyone else wants to play just because they think it’s unfair.

For the record I play them ALL. Played them all to nearly max before and after all the Aranock additions.

I probably have a good idea of how the balance has worked out...

Necro ranking so fast and almost completely AFK makes it 1) off balance with the others; and 2) the crazy fast (nearly AFK ranking) in AT makes their sacrifice at the beginning go away.

If we don't balance down Necro we need to give stun back to Hara, Concentrate to Seyan, faster rest of some form of "rest Concentrate to AT, and to continue to boost Warr/Sorc. Sorry I know nothing about Ninja yet.


,best

Z

All the game really needs is some people like Zraaq who are knowledgable about all the races and willing to nerf their own characters assigned as part of a balance team. They could write up a little report that shows the major issues with each race. Then once the report is out, have people suggest changes to those issues, then that team would take those suggestions & their own and pick what gets queued up for changes in the game.

I didnt really wanna get involved in this topic but i feel that i have to before radical decisions are made.


Yes necros are the strongest. They also are the most difficult char to make. As Marky said before.. you have to give up a late general early Fdm (at best!) to be able to start a private necro (no fks no poles.. just pure grind to rank up)
I feel that there should be a reward for that time and effort people have put into their necro char.

Let me go over the things that drink was asking for:

*Remove 10 sword from weapon :

Might be a good idea but then the only benefit of the sword would be a few extra wv. Necros dont get rediculously high mod sword so i really dont see the benefit of removing this. Try hitting a prison AH as an undrugged non rb warlord necro (you hardly even hit em if you dont curse them even with the +10 extra sword) Also as a Rb2 warlord necro i get like around 290 mod sword on a dpot and full prison gear and godly gods armor/weasel sword helm and ML ammy. 290 may sound like alot but its still not enough to hit endgame bosses. If you would remove the 10 sword... Youll have 280 mod sword which is pretty low for endgame content. (ill check later to see what i get exactly on own spells and dpot just to be sure... ill get back to this)


* Remove the +20 Immunity from the Amulet
* Reduce the +20 Resistance to +15 on the Amulet:

What the point of having a necro ammy then if you wanna level it with the ankh ammy (ok yes they get some more conc/med/regen but then that would be it) I like the fact that necros have their own amulet. Besides... this nerf would only make a difference untill around start of noble cause you want a Memory Lane amulet which theoretically you can get at LtGen. Once you have that ....the necro ammy is pretty useless already. So i dont really see the benefit of this nerf

And besides.....Both of these (sword and ammy) give a necro their identity imo


* Increase Non-Necro specific skill costs like Sword, DW etc to Merc Levels.

I can agree to this. Non rb necro maxes out at around early baron if i remember correctly. By slightly increasing the xp needed to raise certain stats... lower ranked necros arent as strong as they are now and you wouldnt be maxed out too early. Good idea for a nerf without having to touch their skills (again!)


* Remove EITHER Immunity or Magic Shield from the class (would say Immunity) - they have Blind to reduce spells (dont get me started on 105 C2), dispell to remove curses once free, a heal pet gc incase they get stunned/blasted etcc..

Necros already had their immunity and resistance lowered. Also they used to have harden... got removed aswell. I think dropping either imm/ms would be too drastic of a change seeing the time you have to put in to make a necro character. Yes you can dispell a curse... not if you stunned tho.. and as soon as you remove the curse.. before you can blind your cursed again already. No immunity is something for a hara/sorc.. not for melee classes imo. And a necro without ms/harden would have way to low AV compared to other classes (on own spells)


So the only thing i agree on is raising the cost of skills slightly. Just so you wont be superstrong at early ranks and dont max out very early.


Another suggestion would be to stop the gc from spelling you.. forcing you to raise your own spells instead of relying on your gc to spell you.


MarshMallowMan can i ask what your experience is playing a necro char?


Greetings

Just tested with both in same gear

Rb2 warlord necro : 292 sword (with own bless of 313 power which is max with ML ammy)
Rb1 earl warrior : 283 sword (with own bless of 348 power which is max with ML ammy)

The warrior can still update more agi/str so when they maxed he will prolly get up to 288
So if i would rb2 the warrior... he will get 5 more so 292/293... which would be equal to the necro

I think thats why the sword gives +10 sword to a necro .. else he will have lower mod sword then a warrior... by around 10

So if you want to remove the 10 sword from the necro sword... in general necros will have 10 less weaponskill then warriors. Im not sure thats a good idea.. cause of all the endgame content which are hard enough to hit even with 292 mod sword. And also because it takes alot more effort to make a necro compared to warrior

Greetings

1 correction on Mayhems post: Memory Lane amulet requires Knight+. You can't enter Memory Lane below Knight.


Necro maxes at Baron. So does AT btw. That means: maxing the directly useful stuff.
Blast on a necro, skeleton companion and more are not included with that.

And AH...they have quite a few spells to max. But at Baron you can max all relevant too. Maybe B2 maxed, but no B1 maxed? Maybe not Poison maxed?
There is of course a difference for AH. Stun, Curse, Curse 2, Blast, Blast 2, Poison/compulse, Bless, Enh, Prot, MS, dispel. It is a long list. And high values of those.
Neither the Necro nor the AT are a swiss army knife like an AH.
Btw, ever seen an AH pent or do abandoned town? Don't blink..they are THAT fast

Seyans have the same issue like AH. So many things to raise. Next to that, the exp to max spells and skills is felt to be high. All the same 90 max makes you feel like it never ends.
But seyans can also get exp easy. Park your seyan in AT for example, low effort, nice gains.
Again, seyans max all of their useful stats at a higher rank, but they do have more of them.

Ninja maxes at Knight if I recall right. So that sounds great. It actually means ninjas flatten out early and have a long way to go filled with meaningless slow-ish penting
Ninjas don't have many skills and spells. 1 on 1 or on one max 4 can work. Ninja in FDM AT...I have seen the skeletons respawn in the same room...

Every class is a different way of playing the game. More involved, like on a hara or sorc, cursing and blasting, busy every second. Or laid back, like an AT walking in a room, shrugging his shoulders.
It means some classes will be more for one person, and others more for another one.

I tested all classes on Memory Lane. All with maxed out relevant skills and spells, dpot and prison/dragon gear.
Sorc was the one who had the most issues in staying alive. Seyan, AH, Necro did okay. Dispel makes a big difference.
Warrior was sometimes a bit slow. And Ninja and AT hardly could solo it. Not due to death, but too slow in clearing some rooms.
The last 3 are very strong when mixed with a sorc or AH. They will clear every room quicker than all others.
I say, embrace the differences, enjoy different gameplay.

Agree with Marky, Mayhem and Xclusive on this. I don't have a necro my self, but I do have an Earl RB1 AH, maxed most important stuff. I would say I have less trouble doing a solo prison run, then a necro at same rank. I have stun, and necro don't. That makes an AH almost twice as good as a necro. If things should be flattened out, it means AH maybe need a tiny reduce on B2, and remove SH on GC, and give it 15 more Imunity instead. That benefits more for a GC at higher ranks imo.
Reducing a necro's skills, only means no one want to get one anymore, as you can just make an AH. That is more or less best class in game so far, as it comes to solo areas, and team ups.

-Sigtyr

Well I am watching my Necro fly up through content much faster than all the other classes I have made. And that INCLUDES the time I spent making a General to go Necro. So I am getting bored with the "You sacrifice so much so they are supposed to be more powerful" argument...

But even if we stipulate to that a few points that have been made here keep bugging me. We talk a LOT about the endgame content and if they can handle "Bosses". When Aranock decided to take away stun and ad non-magic zones they Totally gimped Hara for many important "Boss" areas that Necro can still solo. So I am beyond bored with that line of thinking as well.

The solution to make ALL Necro skills more expensive like maxing a Seyan is the least and probably best answer, but don't forget their "Pet" that lets them AFK so many hard areas must cost at least Double to do that so we don't have MaGen Necros sleeping through FDM AT. and Why should their "Pet" be more powerful than the Hara "Pet" when Hara is the original GC class???

Necro should Never have a Knight "Pet" when fully maxed RB2 Hara is limited to FDM...


,best

Z

I know you have issues with several npcs not being stunable. I understand that, agree to some extend, but that is a different discussion, I would say.
More on topic: Necro can never stun. And there are many places that are blind-proof too.

Making a general is quite a big thing for most common players. Certainly when it is your first and only char.
Same goes for raising your necro. If you only have that char, it will be slow. As most classes.

About necro pet. Lets turn it around. Why would a hara have a more powerful pet?
Why should a hara be more powerful than a necro in such an area?
I assume you don't want to downgrade a seyans blade because you compare it to a haras dagger...?!

About the afk-exp gathering. I really dislike that happening. You don't earn a necro that way, in my book. (same for all classes, of course).
If you would remove bless, enh and prot casting from uc to owner, that would fix it. You can play fine without it.
I would, in that case, keep the self spelling for a uc. It is a special companion, not a gc twin. Same with skeleton companion.
Removing spelling bless, enh and prot to owner mainly removes the chance of afk exp farming. It also slows down your progress a bit, because you need to raise UC, but then also bless, enh and prot (and related bwias) for you and your uc.
That is quite doable. Quite a few people have done it on purpose that way.
I see only a downside for afk-exp farmers.

remove the 10 sword from the necro sword... in general necros will have 10 less weaponskill then warriors. Im not sure thats a good idea.. cause of all the endgame content which are hard enough to hit even with 292 mod sword.

What?
What do u class as 292 for endgame.. bosses.....
Throw on some SS Peices
Seyans finish -15 and still manage it.
Necros even get 105 Curse2 compared to Warriors, lowering the enemies weapon skill below that of what a warrior would fight.
Why is a necro equal to a Warrior with sword skills when they have both 105C2 and 120Blind.
They can easily lower the enemy enough to slap them around, literal walking gods, to kill one you would have to stuff up majorly.






Hello Random Warrior, how are you going, hows your MS/Harden, oh wait.
+15 more prot you say?
105Base Bless(more mods)
105Curse2 to lower enemies