Ok so having thoroughly tested Warcry on my Warrior the last few days I've got quite a few bits of information and thoughts to share (TL/DR at the bottom for those that don't like math). First, two critical pieces of information regarding War-Curse:

1. Increasing Warcry mod/power does not improve the skill debuff of the curse. At all mod values tested, the skill debuff of Warcry is -9 to skills (-18 if a "petrifying warcry" lands). Immunity does not affect the skill debuff portion of War-Curse.
2. The AV reducing affect of Warcry is = (Power - Immunity/2)/12)

Now, I fully understand the initial concern that 105 Warcry would make warriors too powerful, but I think the above points clearly show that would not be the case, especially if we compare the effect of War-Curse to Curse2. An additional 30 base Warcry would have NO EFFECT on the skill mod reduction. As for the AV reduction, if we use the above formula and compare a Warcry mod of 170 vs. a Warcry mod of 200 against an immunity of 150, you get an additional AV reduction of 2.5 from the extra 30 Warcry. The actual numbers are ~8 reduced at 170 power, and ~10.5 reduced at 200 power.

Now, back to comparing War-Curse to Curse2. A 90 power Curse is a skill debuff of -18. This is the power I get landing my 142 mod curse on magen AT skellies. Now, obviously with SS gear, gpots, etc. this power could be MUCH higher. For example, if I get my mod up to 165 with my RoP's, the power becomes 105 and the debuff becomes -21 (curse debuff is -1 skill per 5 points of power, for those that didn't know). That means -21 immunity, which means an equal power curse2 would then cause an additional skill debuff of -25 if stacked with curse.

So 60 base curse and curse2 stacked together using the numbers above would result in a skill debuff of -46 (this is undrugged, without any SS gear, and without re-cursing which would actually make it -50). This debuff would scale with both the power of curse and the power of curse2.

60 base curse and 105 Warcry stacked together would be -32 (assuming you curse AFTER your Warcry reduces immunity by 9). This number only scales with the power of curse, it does not scale with the power of Warcry!









TL/DR/Summary (which is just as long as the other half of the post, oops):

Replacing Curse2 with Warcry actually LIMITS the debuff that Warriors can cause with double cursing, REGARDLESS of the power of Warcry. The benefit is that Warcry is usable more regularly because it's based off Endurance and Warriors only have 15 meditate, so it improves the quality of life of the Warrior, makes it more fun to play, and makes more sense for the Merc/Templar hybrid class.

So all of that being said, I re-iterate that Warriors should get 105 base Warcry, not 75. When comparing this to Curse2 above this could actually be seen as a nerf to Warriors rather than a buff. Also NO OTHER CLASS gets an arch skill that caps below their higher max:

Templar = 120 SH2/Harden/DualWield
AH = 120 Blast2/Poison/Compulse/Curse2
Sorc = 105 Curse2/Poison/Compulse
Necro = 105 Curse2/SH2/DualWield
Seyan = 90 Curse2/SH2/Blast2
Ninja = 120 Poison/Assassinate/Blind

Now, regarding 60 base rest. I know this was done to limit the ability of a warrior to stealth/stun pent. Some interesting comparisons to make are that Warriors get 75 stealth currently while Sorcs only get 60. As far as rest, Arch-Templars only get 90, warriors used to have 105. My proposal is: Reduce Warrior stealth to 60, increase Warrior rest to 75, increase Sorc stealth to 75. The reduction in Warrior stealth will mitigate some of the concerns about being able to stealth pent with Warcry. The 75 rest keeps them below Arch Temps, which they should be, but 60 is too low in my opinion. And since Sorcs are the stun and run class, they'd be better off with the 75 stealth over the Warriors (and they could use a little love as well IMO).

Anyway I put a good amount of thought/time/effort into the above, and would appreciate other peoples opinions and input. Overall I've really enjoyed having Warcry on my warrior and I like the change, I just don't think it needed to be nerfed in the way that it was and I think the data and rationale above supports that.

Can you explain why warriors need to double curse? will you die without it, or is it simply for clear speed.

if warriors retain warcry they should have the same stealth as a arch templar, whatever that is. i doesn't make sense for some guy warcrying the screen to be "stealthy".

Well prior to this change Warriors already had both Curse and Curse2. So this change isn't about giving them the ability to double curse, since they already had that ability. This was about Warcry being more appropriate for a Warrior than Curse2 was. Seyans, Necros, Sorcs, and Warriors with Curse2 all already had the ability to land Curse2 from stealth. Although I can appreciate your point if what you're saying is that it doesn't make sense for a Warcry, which would essentially be someone yelling loudly, to be an act of stealth. But perhaps they can hear the Warcry but they can't tell where it came from, that would be extra frightening lol.

You might as well make it closer to AT stats, it would at least make it usable. I like the idea of warrior but outside of Necro or AT, Warrior doesn’t excite me unless maybe you RB1 with spell power and Spell sets. Happy to see the change and discussion so far.

Has anyone changed over and got WC on their Warriors?

Has it helped or been less than useful?

I am a General rank Warrior. I have 75 warcry but maybe your looking for someone higher rank then me for feedback?




Its showing as modified 145 Right now with just regular setup and spells

In Abandon Town it works great for me in Brig General area. Have not done the other areas much yet as I am not strong enough. I take alot of damage in the Brig General area as it is.

If I go to the Brig General Pents it fails to hit the Brig Generals gargoyles sometimes (maybe the strong ones?). Also with only 60 rest and taking 100 endurance each time i quickly expend all my endurance and have to wait around for it to recover (i walk and fight on slow as well).



When the auto monster lotto triggered this morning i tried it out on stuff around my rank and none of the warcrys hit at all even with gpot in 8/9 portals.

I personally think 75 warcry is to weak, and im not sure how useful it will be penting with only 60 rest. Even if you buffed warcry i dont know if it would be enough though (not an export though).

Speaking of that... i was trying to make a comparision table of the different fighter classes to see what their skills are at with MAXED stats/skills and casting their own bless/spells with no gear but weapon on.

this is the table I came up with:



so some things of note:
-necro is a better fighter than warrior at everything that matters... with their special sword that gives more damage and + sword skill they are the better class. they basically on par with templars except they have access to way more spells, mana regen, everything.
-warriors are basically good at nothing and almost the worst at everything compared to other fighting classes
-warrior has the lowest Rest... Lowest Meditate...
-they have no class specific skill that makes them special... They just have worse versions of spells/skills other classes have.
-their utility spells like curse and stun are such low base they become useless.
-they have no special items that help them out... necro with their super sword... templar get to use staff to get around mana issues

The only thing they have going for them is their spell power but strangley coupled with super low base spells and meditate... but I am not at the point in the game where i have 6 different switch sets in my inventory with SS's in them yet to see if that helps.

You would probably do better trying to make Warrior closer to Necro. As it stands today Unless you just like Warrior or have another alt to create SS sets, there isn’t any fun playthrough I think on Warrior. Hence when I saw Necro, I’m like why bother when it’s literally the same build but way better. You almost have to combine better spells like Necro has maybe with AT skills. Choice to use Axe and higher spell mods?

To me gameplay should be focused on fun, experience, and only to some extend on balancing.
When we keep trying to make a class better, then there is always a next class that feels left behind. And better at what? Solo, penting, AT-ing, prison, lich? Some have high blacksmith, some high lockpick, others great spells to share.
Make them different in gameplay and they should each have their place. More interaction, more challenge, or maybe less interesting, but good enough when you have done other classes.
To me, it should be okay that some classes are weaker. Top RB2 are almost all seyans. Seems like other classes are unnecessary.And yet they get played plenty.
And some people with various RB2s do warriors as a next class. Should still be fun.

I have started with ninja. It feels still like a annoying class, too weak at too many moments. Put a AH next to it and suddenly a ninja is quite nice.
But mainly: ninja is different. So you get a familiar game, with different gameplay. THAT adds something to me.

So I am not trying to say warrior can't be updated. But I would focus on a fun way to play that class. With less looking at other classes. Less more of the same.

One thing that was off in that colored chart (which is quite nice), imo: warrior has c1 and c2/wc. When you can reduce the others stats more, you can do with less
Same has seyan'du.

I dont have Curse2 because I have Warcry. We dont get both unless we give up like surroundhit2 or dual wield which would be crazy to do.


If i did choose Curse2... then it would be 130 mod curse 2 vs necros 185 mod curse 2... im not an expert but 130 might not be enough to hit enemies even at my level.

So less sword, less dual wield, less res, less immunity, less curse2. less WV, less AV. less everything. and then u get Dispell, Blind and your minion


I think warrior attributes cost more to raise as well.

You dont seem to comprehend that the class you keep defending basically deleted 3 other classes. So while your having fun the other classes are not able to complete the same content without significant investment. This topic is about finding out what might help warriors out without stepping on the toes of the arch templar and keep their class identities

Warcry does not only curses the target. It also reduces AV which makes you hit them harder. And Warcry power is not affected by immunity. In AT FDM my warcry hits the skellies with 171 mod power (300 mod) Goodluck getting that power c2 with a necro with 300mod c2 on that same skeleton.



Warriors and necros have the same amount of mod sword on max power spells.
Warriors DW (poison) is way more powerful then necro because of the spellbonus warriors get.
Warriors get more mod res and immunity then necros.
Warriors get 5 more weapon value then necros on own (max power) spells.
Warriors also have curse and stun

Warriors are great. They kill faster then a necro.. Pent faster and can clear out AT faster. They most definitely have their advantages over necro class.

Greetings

That's why I wrote C2/WC

About the math: see mayhems post.


There is no reason why you have to play a warrior. Unless you want to. That is what I am trying to say.
If you like another class better, then play that one.
What I am trying to say is that the game should be fun. You can pick a class that suits you. And for quite a few that will not be the only class. Even a decent amount of players who move on to basically ever class.

Take a ninja. It is broken, it is so bad... Oh wait...you CAN play with it. Doing high rank AT-ing is only possible with a great spell set. And even then...
There is only surround hit 1 and some poison. So you can't get exp afkish in AT. You have to pent. That's the ninja life.
To change this, you could add things like SH2, add warcry, curse, stun, eh...wait...that's a warrior now.

My point is, a class should, in my opinion, be different. It should give you some kind of gameplay. The stats should be following that gameplay.
That being said, if the current warrior, with warcry, still is a pain to play, then THAT is a reason to change something, in MY opinion.
Comparing to others will just creating a never ending story of changing the next class, and the next class, until there is only 1 class left.

Well the power of Warcry doesn't improve the skill debuff, and the AV reduction is quite small so I'd argue that landing a high power Warcry is not the equivalent of landing a high power Curse/Curse2. I'd also strongly disagree that Warriors can kill faster than a necro. My LtGen Necro can clear AT faster than my Baron Warrior and pent waaaay faster thanks to pet taking aggro.

I can certainly appreciate the posts about characters being different. But the entire reason I made this thread was because, as other posters have pointed out, Warriors seemed to have been dwarfed the most by the new classes due to them both filling that Fighter/Caster hybrid niche that Warrior was in, and leaving Warriors rather unappealing IMO. I'd personally rather see a change to Warriors that helps them stand out a bit rather than trying to nerf Necro's into the ground.

As I stated before, I personally have enjoyed the addition of Warcry, but I feel it was introduced a lot weaker than it needed to be. The entire point of replacing C2 with Warcry was to make it so you could land it (which was difficult with 60 base C2), and make it so you could afford to cast it (again, difficult with the mana cost of C2 coupled with 15 base meditate. The 15 base meditate is another thing I could complain about now that every other class has concentrate but whatever lol). Introducing Warcry with 75 base and reducing rest to 60 just moves both of those problems to Warcry rather than solving them. It's now too low to land in some cases and becomes costly to cast with the low rest. The increased power does not increase the skill debuff, so I don't think 105 Warcry will suddenly make them way stronger but it will help it land (which was the whole point of using it instead of C2), and give a marginal boost to the AV reduction.

Edit: I should also add that while I've been preferring the WC over the C2 due to being able to use it more regularly. It is definitely far weaker than actually landing C2 and Curse on an enemy (assuming you had a spell set or something of that nature to be able to do so), which is another reason I don't see the problem with raising the base.

You can make warcry sets too, just as you need to make a Curse 2 set to make it land, as a warrior. Both will rot when in use. Don't see a problem now, as soon as that part was mentioned. Hehe. Warriors always had to use SS on gears to get up and forward, same as they need now.

-Sigtyr

Yeah that is my whole issue though. It's always been the argument "well Warriors don't suck if they use a bunch of SS gear". The problem with that is everyone else can use SS gear too, except they don't need it just to make their skills work. So a Warrior is going to tie up their SS set to add to their curse or warcry just so it can land, meanwhile a Necro can make a sword SS set and have vastly more sword than the warrior, and their C2 will still land no problem because it's 105 base.

Well, take it back to v2 days, when Warrior and Sorcer were sub-classes for Mercenaries to go Seyan, OR stay a bit weaker then main classes are and was at that time. Making them stronger, means you could erase both warr and sorc classes, leave AH, AT, Seyan and Necro, as they are already filling the gaps those two sub-classes are missing.
So if anything was to change, maybe Sorcer should be nerfed instead, to line up with a warrior as the sub-class they are meant to be? And for your information, most classes need SS'ed or crafted gears to hit max on skills wanted. Don't see the problem for warriors doing the same? And for an AT to solo pent top UW, it need either SS'ed/crafted or prison gear, for a decent pent speed. Why is it so hard for warriors to do that? And my AH still uses gears to get max boosts and enough resist to go places, still having to swap around gears?

-Sigtyr