To help the imbalance give them new skill called rage. The more you fight the higher your wv goes and then decreases if you stop fighting.
Also mana burn crits so you crit and take off a random amount of mana from the enemy

I would like this considering I feel like I'm one of the only arch templers left that plays every day lol

You have about 100 posts with suggestions for additional skills or new concepts that would speed up killspeed and improve the feel of the class but we got +5 brav max and +5 enhance weapon lol.

AT struggle solo were most classes have no issues and the balancing act here is heavily reliant on the fact that AT becomes a beast on spells. RB2 310 mod spells + bonus can make it into a beast which is what people are afraid of. PVP is the reason ATs get nothing lol. It is probably the least used feature in the game but hey... PVP is king in today's gaming world.

Then perhaps a modifier for when templars get spelled to lower the power.
This Tincan is too dumb for the full power of your spells

The ONLY way to FIX Arch Templars is by giving them the ability to wield 2 Two-Handed weapons (For twice the vicious crits and add poison to them as well).

Also, to make WC act like blast 2+Stun+ the AV reduction and add curse to it again.


Also Harden should make you immune to any type of stun and or curse. For ever.


No need to thank me.


Labfiveonly guru of balance.

Did you forget(again) about the warcry debuffing armor, which results in sh/sh2 doubling in damage at high ranks due to how armor and sh/sh2 are calculated, and making it useable extremely often with max rest...
New warcry pretty much is a new skill that increases damage by a large amount compared to before.
Also +5 ew results in about +13 with increased SS you can make, and no, we aren't going to ignore SS when balancing.

Would like it if people actually tried tincan after the buffs before complaining, about 4 people have tried since..

There's a difference between suggesting and complaining. I only made the post to suggest a way to improve the kill speed. As my seyan can kill faster than a arch templar that is 1 rank above it.

Rd2 is delayed cos admin admit templars are not balanced so people suggest ways to improve solo play and it's called complaining?

I have nothing to do with delaying rd2, I don't know how it works in cgi.
Also yes, a seyan which is the highest dps class in the game will outkill ungeared tincans.
I just wish people would try them instead of suggesting things that wont even fix them, their dps is one the 2nd highest of all melee races.

So warcry now doubles damage from sh/sh2 does it? Never noticed but hey that's a plus, increase damage on 1/4th of attacks and only at very high rank where you actually max rest/wc.

I didn't forget anything, you warcry buff was poorly implemented by removing war-curse to add av reduction. Warcurse also having an effect on damage caused but with the added benefit that it could spare the templar some damage. So your buff was a nerf as well. Let's also keep on talking about how warcry is not nearly as useable as you mention. Most ATs max rest/warcry about mid noble and even then you can't sustain it like nearly every other spell and skill other classes have. You could have potions but that too requires you to have a play style that limits you compared to other classes that barely use any rep pots. On top of the abysmal stats an arch templar can achieve on own spells, these buffs in a one year period have served to change very in the reality of most arch templars.

Finally, you are probably the best geared player in this server and you have about 60million more exp than the second "highest" AT in the server. You have the luxury or had in the past of playing multiple hours a day. You did well in gearing your toons and leveling your toons to the point where you have 2 rb2 characters to my knowledge. If you plan on balancing a class based on the penultimate level of gear and time investment, you are doing things wrong. You have probably 2-3 rb ATs compared to everyone else. You had a severely limited number of ATs in noble ranks and the reason was simple, it is an unattractive class when comparing it with how other classes evolved over the years. It has become the slowest and weakest class overall in the game. If you think that balancing things to the level where only 1-2 people in the entire server has reached is adequate, you should review your strategy.

You call it complaining, I call it lack of addressing the main issue. You (lazyw) have very often dismissed other suggestions basing your response on your personal experience. While it is a fair method given your involvement in the game's dev, it does not mean that it is one that is appreciated by people who see issues differently. You will understand that when you see 2 changes in over a year on a class that is deemed under-tuned by the staff, people might get discouraged.

Empathy is a skill that serves greatly in many spheres of life, including dealing with players who are dismayed by the current state of a beloved class. So instead of saying we are complaining, understand this... We spend our limited time to post on this forum and think about game mechanics for a 20 year old game that nearly no one plays anymore because we love this game to such a degree.

Im dismissing the ideas because ALMOST NOBODY has even tried the last changes, at all. And then we have people like you claiming to have tried it when you haven't(less than 20 minutes online and undrugged with no special gear after you made the post claiming you tried them out...) trying to convince people they're still terrible.
They're ideas based on people making up stuff claiming the class has weaknesses that were mostly fixed.

Also I played tincan with almost no special gear when they got changed, not with the most geared tincan on the server. I made my tincan the strongest on the server because I realized they actually have some potential now.

As for warcurse making u do more damage and taking less, try gpots, if your wep skill is still low enough u arent 60 over top pents thats entirely on you, a templar with basic rings and basic bear axe can reach over 250 on a gpot(highest UW pents only go to 192) your parry rate is capped with those stats. Assuming you have SOME basic bless gear reaching 270+ is possible. without a speller.

And yes, warcry DOES make sh/sh2 do about double damage, sh/sh2 have reduced damage and often end up doing 10 or so per hit if you're penting about where you should be at most ranks, and warcry -15-20av brings that up to 25-30, so actually double/triple.


Can you please actually try the previous change before saying its poorly implemented?

From MY experience, I believe the old WC was better, It seemed to help me take down UW golems faster. This is all of course from countless times penting comparing it to the last times I have pented in UW golems with the new WC mechanics.

I even made a story about it, once.

I don't have the best gear, but I have a few good SS pieces, so it's not like I am Penting with the basic stuff. I also pent on DPots/gpots and compared to the gear which I had before (almost none) I remember having done more exp/hour than I can do now.


So, yes, I have tried it.

If you have better gear i cannot possibly see how you killed faster... the + stats from your newer gear would more than make up for the curse and that was the only thing it lost that would affect killedspeed. Did you change any other gear like using a staff instead?

Never learned the skill.


The only change I did was actually get Dual wield for the poison crit, because apparently that would make things go faster. But it didn't really change much.

I swap in between 2H Axe and Dual wield for the Poison crit.


That is probably the only thing I do differently. And just before we can say "Oh that is why you are penting slow, you should not swap weapons".


I have tried Penting just on Dual Wield and yes the poison is nice but the Vic crits are missing, so same, pents are not as fast.

And I have used the same old 2H axe I have been using for over a year, with out swapping. Pretty similar result.


Did perhaps the UW golems get buffed?

i can back Lazy on the AT WC, I mean its a pain to get WC and endurance up SH and SH2 are not so bad, for stuff like pents I hear 2Handed axe is better, but if you go to ab town, DW is much better at maxed, but back to the WC it makes my SH/SH2 hit quite abit more then normal like I said WC takes up endurance fast if you are fast penting, BUT its handy as heck in AT forsure so what I figure is rest is one of your go to stats till your high enouph to warcry once in AT and its back to full befor next room, or in pents case I got no idea lol. hope this insite helps from a arch templer!

Warcry change has been implemented almost 9 months ago in which time I was able to test it out on a baron AT and felt it was lackluster. This change, I spent about 3 hours trying it out in various levels of AT.

Three main issues with it.

Cost remains too high to use while using harden and even just pure sustain. It is a problem when a balance change would only affect late level power when the issue is consistent throughout the progression to that point as well.

War curse removal means that there is a power difference now and this plays a role not only in damage rate but also other factors such as reducing heal mod in AT. Making increased damage negated in part by higher mod healing. There are other issues in terms of WC in pvp and against higher rank monsters as well such as prison. Overall it means that AT loses a means to debuff monsters in order to gain slightly more damage. A bad trade off in certain instances.

Sh/Sh2 remains a poorly designed skill which only activates on horizontal animation strikes which is about 1/4 on top of having dismal damage at base.

This was my impression but I will spend some more time this week and observe specifically the damage portion as stated. It didn't leave any impression on me the first time I did but maybe I didn't focus enough on kill speed.